The following coments have come in on Cybernauts Awake. We reproduce them here, generally without comment. Obviously we take no responsibility for any of the contents of the links. If we get constructive or specific feeback from anyone we'll post it.
We're grouping them for now into:
We'll probably have to be more sophisticated v soon! I also show the start and finish of an attempt to consult COIN.
Subject: I like your Web site! Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 09:05:31
-0600 From: "Deidra Duncan"[deidra@cafes.net]
To: Dear Cybernauts, Congratulations on your excellent Web
site! I have also enjoyed reading the articles on you in today's London
papers. I am enclosing them below to make sure you have them. I maintain, mostly
as a volunteer, several large Anglican Web sites on the Net--they are listed
below my signature. And I maintain a private, daily e-mail church news distribution
list. Please let me know how things are developing. I wish you all the best
in your endeavor. If you need information, please let me know. My time is pretty
much taken up with work and keeping the Web sites updated weekly, so I can't
volunteer to do much work right now. But I may be able to point you in the right
direction or to the right person if you need advice. Deidra
Deidra Duncan, Manchester, Tennessee, USA ** Divine Creations ** http://www.cafes.net/deidra
Webmaster for the following Web sites: Forward
in Faith, North America | Virtuosity
| The Seminary of the Anglican Way (SAW)
| Scholarly Engagement With Anglican
Doctrine, S.E.A.D. | Trinity
Church
Subject: Link to your site Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 18:42:43 -0000
From: "Brian"[brianstrand@lineone.net]
A great site that should provoke Christians
to use the net as a part of Jesus commission.You may like to consider my
site as a link or example of what can be done relatively easily. Sincerely
Brian Strand
From:Cheong Nai Cheong[nai@pop.jaring.my] Subject: joindebate
Date: Fri, 05 Nov 1999 09:01:35 +0800
The internet being such a "new" phenomenon, some times beyond the control or
regulations of authorities,in a way has become a haven for disreputable and
unhealthy information/activities. It is very disturbing that young and "unstrengthened"
minds could be easily exposed to such materials.Therefore, any counter and especially
spiritual campaign is a very welcomed effort.Good luck. Cheong Nai Cheong, Malaysia
Subject: Cybernauts Awake! Date: Sun, 07 Nov 1999 14:16:37 +0000 From: Gervase Markham[gervase.markham@university-college.oxford.ac.uk] Dear Sir, Thankyou very much for putting your book, Cybernauts Awake! on the net for anyone to read - I commend the spirit in which this has been done, and your understanding of what makes the Net work. However, I wish to correct one important factual error. In the section Living With Cyberspace, subsection Property, heading Changing Perceptions, you state: "Thus public domain software is altruistic, and often of a very high standard because it has been open to public scrutiny. A variation of public domain is copyleft, which as its name implies, is an alternative to copyright. In copyleft, the authors assert basic rights to be recognized and allow for the material to be freely copied provided that it is never changed." This is almost, in fact, the exact opposite of what copyleft is. Copyleft might better be described, in your terms, as a system whereby "the author asserts copyright over the work and allows the material to be freely copied and changed by anyone provided that the derivative works are also freely available." In other words, copyleft restricts the right of anyone to take away your freedom to copy, change and improve the copylefted work. In this way, if software is buggy or has errors, you can always correct them (or someone else can). Now, given that you laud the ability of cyberspace to enable you to edit documents, I would hope that the on-line version could be updated to make this concept, which many people regard as key to making the Net work (the Net is built on communications software, much of which is copylefted, and it is generally held that, if it were instead produced by a private company, it would not be of as good quality), more clear? Yours, Gervase Markham {response: Thanks for this, we have made the necessary amendment}
Subject: joindebate Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 22:46:58 -0000 From: "Alan O'Duffy" [soundman@btinternet.com] Hi there I think your venture is a splendid idea altogether for Christians to have a venue in this domain to communicate, debate and increase our spirituality! I'd be delighted to be see the site prosper! Keep in touch Alan.
Subject: joindebate Date: 10 Nov 1999 13:54:15 GMT From:
tevans@canford.com (tevans) Organization: Canford School
I think that this website contains the sort of language that we need to hear
more of in this "cyberage". With the Internet being made more widely available
to the public we need to take more responsibility for the way we use it and
not abuse the privilege that it accords us. As a student, I regularly surf the
web to aid my studies and so am accustomed to the breadth of subjects that it
spans. 'Cybernautsawake' is the first website that I have found that deals with
the spiritual implications that the 'net holds and how Christians should use
it. It is very easy, when surfing the 'net, to be tempted by sites that aren't
exactly what one might call "moral", and so with a greater spiritual imput,
I believe that the Internet could become even greater than it already is. I
would like to hear people's views on the matter of the Internet and its uses.
Cheers for a great site!!!
Subject: cybernauts awake! Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 11:33:26 -0000 From: "Gledhill, Ruth" To: "'general@coin.org.uk'" Am I really the only person who thought this was a really great report? Or maybe my opinion is influenced by comparison with other church reports. Might I suggest that those critical of Cybernauts Awake! read every church report that has been published in the last decade or so, as I have had to do in the course of duty (if you don't want to go back a decade, begin with Something [not] to Celebrate and go from there.) I can assure you that you will then truly awake to the signs and wonders of Cybernauts Awake!
Subject: Considerations for "Cyber Evangelisation"
- The Internet Designer Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 13:02:11 -0500 From:
Elizabeth G Melillo Organization: Internet Designer To: nb@starcourse.org
- My essay - perhaps of some use
to you ... with the caveat that I proof read it myself, which leaves plenty
of margin for error... Many blessings- Elizabeth
-- Elizabeth G. Melillo, PhD - "Gloriana" Internet Designer Gloriana's Court
- http://www.gloriana.nu - "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date"
- C.S. Lewis
From jamespeterson@mciworld.com Date:
Fri, 12 Nov 1999 16:24:21 +0000 To: Dave Leal Subject: cybernautsawake
Dave, Thanks for the alert to cybernautsawake. Clear,
inviting, to the point, life transforming content in language accessible to
those who have not heard... Nicely done! Blessings, Jim (C. C. Dickson
Associate Professor of Theology and Ethics Wingate
University)
PS have you considered linking to www.bioethix.org
for a Christian view of bioethics, or to www.asa3.org
for an association of scientists who are Christians? Thanks for all you are
doing.
Subject: Cybernauts Awake!
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 13:55:55 -0000 From: "Hothersall, Gillian"
I'm sure you will be contacted by others about this, but a good link would be
to ship-of-fools.com All of us on the
Ship are grappling daily with the issues you discuss, and would be pleased to
contribute to the debate.
From:CCFHUB@compuserve.com Subject: Cybernauts Awake! Date:
Fri, 5 Nov 1999 06:31:46 -0500
We agree with you that the ethical and spiritual implications of cyberspace
need discussion! We at the Conservative Christian Fellowship have had a website
for a few years now - take a look at www.tory.org.uk/ccf
Please add a link to any of our pages that you consider useful - it might be
better, though to use our
direct URL in your links: Regards, Ron West CCF Webmaster
Subject: Add a link from www.cybernaughtsawake.net Date: Sat,
06 Nov 1999 08:49:14 +0000 From: Tony Ryan tony@tardebigge.force9.co.uk
As you are interested in Christians on the net, you may wish visit or possibly
link to our new site: Thanks, Tony
Ryan
Subject: joindebate Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 20:51:54 -0800 From: "Simon and Sue Wilsher"[wilshers@wilsher-group.com] It was with some amazement that I read this article this morning by Victoria Combe in the Daily Telegraph that Prof. D. Burke was urging us Christians to make better use of the internet. It was only yesterday that 2 well known colleagues and I decided to do exactly that. Very exciting and we'll be in touch when we've made progress. Simon Wilsher.
Subject: RE: Cybernauts Awake Date: Mon,
15 Nov 1999 11:00:40 -0000 From: "Visual Liturgy Development" Another
book to look at is My
Tiny Life by Julian Dibbell (ISBN 1-84115-058-4). This is faction about
relationships in a virtual internet world. I found it contained many intriguing
reflections on the nature of web relationships and community.
Separately, I would like to see more reflection on the interaction between the
Internet and the local community. I am just beginning to realise the severity
of the damage inflicted by supermarkets on the dynamics of the local community,
with the loss of small food shops and the focus they provided. The impact of
the Internet will be even more profound. Are we are going to see many retailers
decline, and staff who currently interact with real people behind a counter
or in a department store gradually replaced by others who have repetitive jobs
in warehouses or at computer terminals? Tim
Subject: joindebate Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 13:45:16 -0000 From:
"Andrew Thorburn"(Thorburn@hemscott.net)
It would have been easier to find you if the correct web page had been given
in the Telegraph 2nd. Nov. That apart I have been treated to a search of the
electronic telegraph. Similarly, ordinary name searches have led me to other
Christian family members in far flung parts of the globe. One namesake I discovered
is a pastor in Novo Scotia and another in Clacton.
I agree the spiritual needs of the surfing community can be met to some degree
by chat lines, on line pastoral support and emergency help lines. These are
worthwhile introductions to the saving grace of Christ but are we to expect
the future evangelical outreach of the church to be no more than the posting
of tracts to all email addressees on the globe. It is the personal relationship
with Christ that people need and that still seems to be effected best through
one to one contact. How much I dislike the impersonal recorded enquiry line
approach. "You now have four choices, press one to hear Vivaldi on the synthesiser,
press 2 to hear that you have four more choices, press 3 to be cut off without
explanation and, press 4 to hear the choices again. Of course with video conferencing
links we will be able to make contact more intimate but what really counts with
people in need is the human warmth of someone who is prepared to put themselves
out to draw alongside. It is often not sufficient for an elderly parent to get
a weekend phone call, nice though that is, the effort to go and see them is
much more appreciated. Most of the people our church deals with come from Stonehouse
in Plymouth, once recognised as the poorest parish in the land, these people
have no access to the internet, few resources to call on and little interest
in a God that seems so unconcerned with their daily grind. This is where I would
look for Christ, on the street, with his sleeves rolled up handing out the soup,
not in the cyber cafe downloading email from Louise Casey (Telegraph 15/11/99)
telling him to take his soup elsewhere.
Subject: Re: Thanks for pointing this Cyberbloop
out Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 10:53:30 +1100 From: Mal Veitch
We said "Thanks for pointing this Cyberbloop
out. We'll replace the example with something better. Doesn't alter the fundamental
point though does it? What do you think of the substance of the Implications?"
I feel a little like you're "teaching Grandma to suck eggs." Surely a sincere
and reflective Christian would already be aware of the issues you point out.
For example: "Fostering a good climate,
where the team feel and act like a team of respected professionals, is likely
to result in much wiser and more moral decisions." Well, obviously
(I originally typed "Well, duh" but recognised the unintentional irony just
in time.) I also feel that your comment "IT people are not famous for
their high level of interpersonal skills." only perpetuates a stereotype
and adds nothing to the conversation.
reply: Mal, If all we achieved was to get IT people to act the way sincere
and reflective Christians would consider appropriate for themselves we'd have
done a great deal. Remember this book is not addressed solely to Christians
(let alone 'advanced' ones). And in my experience it is not so easy to maintain
these kind of behaviours in the face of pressures to ship on time. It would
be more interesting if you could identify anything (else) we got wrong or anything
important we left out that should be added.
I see your point about the "interpersonal skills" remark. It is true though,
and a real problem for Project Managers and IT Directors.
So far you are almost the only critic who has had anything specific or constructive
to say, and we're really grateful to you for your input. YIC N
Subject: Re: Thanks for pointing this Cyberbloop out Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 00:17:28 +1100 From: Mal Veitch
So far you are almost the only critic who has had anything specific or constructive to say, and we're really grateful to you for your input. Wow, that makes me feel really significant. No, really, I wasn't being sarcastic (insert serious, straight-faced emoticon here.) As you know, I initially encountered reference to "Cybernauts Awake" in Simon Jenkins' fairly caustic review at Ship of Fools. I guess the editors at SOF have some connection to you, since my comments about Atlantis were directed to them, and were subsequently passed on by SOF to you. Now having actually browsed sections of "Cybernauts" in slightly greater depth, I see that Simon's supercilious remarks actually make your point, in the generally destructive tone they take, but are valid none the less. He says: And maybe this is why their work sometimes sounds like a fairytale, at other times like an idiot's guide, and only intermittently like the serious contribution to debate about the Internet that it claims to be. and I have to agree (provided that "idiot's guide" is not pejorative but rather referring to that series of best selling books.) Ultimately, I still have trouble "connecting" with your purpose. For example, I've just read "What this book is for" four times, but I'm still not sure what it is you want to achieve. I'm not sure that I really need to re-evaluate my ethical position towards cyberspace; that ethical position is already governed from higher up the food chain - I already have ethical positions on relationships and attitudes that convincingly cover the questions you raise. I'm afraid the "feel" I get from the whole document is one of drowning in a sea of generalities. I think I must require intellectual stimulation with a sharper edge. I pray that this makes sense to you, since I'm obviously not a practitioner of that sharper edge I'm so keen to promote. Regards Mal Veitch
Subject: Re: Cybernauts Awake Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 09:27:49
From: Nick Ralph
You did ask and I want to be honest. I am afraid that I thought it was a pretty
awful report. The warnings from others did not prepare me for quite how bad.
It contained so much which seemed to make the church look naive. Perhaps this
was because of the discussions about areas which are outside the Church's competence.
Much of it had no connection with Christianity, but was simply about what is
a decent way to handle something. It was not a distinctively Christian contribution.
It seems to me that the church should not be trying to explain how web sites
or newsgroups work. Many other publications can handle that far better. It simply
makes the Church look silly. I do think it could have done the important bits
and theological aspects without the earlier sections on the Church trying to
explain the technology. The best bits, to my mind, were where the report started
to discuss the way it affected people, in other words the bit on relationships,
and exclusion. These are areas in which the Church has something important to
say and contribute and could have done with being more thorough. The theological
discussion was appauling, and perhaps needed some more heavyweight theologian,
someone like Stephen Sykes would have added much needed weight. Susan White
undertook a much better discussion in her book Christian
Worship and Technological Change. Nick
Reply: The suggestion that we should have written the book without explaining enough to make it comprehensible to people who are not web-literate is a non-starter. We were not trying to write a book exclusively for the tiny minority of Christian net-heads. The website does now contain a version which skips the elementary stuff for the web-savvy, since it is evident that at least some people find it off-putting. To quote one my co-authors: 'our judgement differs from the Ship Of Fools author about the potential audience. He thinks everyone already knows everything. We think that many folk never use the internet; and of those that do, most use it like a telephone -- that is, an appliance we use to get things done, but don't think about very much. Only a minority actually think about it. Our wake-up call is not to say "cyberspace is here", but "cyberspace needs people like you to think about what it should become".'
So is the idea that we should only have said things that only Christians would say. The web is not sectarian (although it certainly can encourage sectarian behaviour). Christians cannot and should not retreat into a "distinctively Christian" ghetto but we need to engage with the real world. Most of us co-authors earn a living in demanding IT-releated secular jobs. However the report is clearly distinctively Christian in that it explicitly brings a Christian perspective to almost every issue tackled. If of course we have missed any important points, or failed to bring a Christian perspective where we should have done, please tell us.
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 11:37:03 +0000 From: Nick Ralph
Nicholas, Thanks for your comments and helpful arguments against what I originally said. It is important to bring these things out in the open and have a sensible debate about them. I would agree that the report should not be for net heads only (or even perhaps at all). I would have dealt with issues like how the internet works in an Appendix. It is not a report on how it works but on its implications, so put the explanations out the way. As I see it, at the moment, the risk is that people reading the report are so bombarded with explanations of how bits of the internet work, that they fail to see what the report is actually saying about the Church's link with/attitude to/arguments concerning the internet.
My concerns are also in the crass titling. The title with Cybernauts in it, and the chapter headings are so redolent of an adolescent teenager's terminology that people will ignore it. This is not for netheads, nor teenagers, it is a report of a working party of the Church of England, it just does not look like it. It is meant to be for Anglicans, and members of General Synod in particular, intelligent people (in the main), but maybe I have got the target audience wrong.
So is the idea that we should only have said things that only Christians would say. In the main report, in some ways I would have to answer yes to that. Is the Church here adding to the sum of knowledge that is worthwhile or not?
Could you also be more specific about how the theological discussion could be improved? Just calling something "appauling" doesn't really advance the thinking much, does it? Fair comment. I think we are nearer the nub of this. The arguments portrayed in the report under Space probing are what passes for its theological discussion. This seems to me to be woefully inadequate. It is too limited and simplistic. You cannot do this sort of thing in 6 pages. What is currently there makes assertion after assertion without any warrant justifying it. Where there are warrants, they are almost straight Biblical quotes with no context, nor is there a discussion of what has been said in the church since then.
I don't know this book by Susan Wright, and it isn't available on amazon.co.uk Can you give a URL? I do not have a URL, but the ISBN is 0-687-07663-3 Christian Worship and Technological Change by Susan J White 1994. It might already be 4 years old but the discussion and method of the whole book (129 pages without notes) would merit close attention. She was a tutor at Westcott House and member of the Liturgical Commission. Stephen Sykes did not like it particularly, but he has relevant theological expertise in the areas of power and authority structures.